Thursday, November 11, 2004
The thing about communication via internet is that it gives one the illusion that you know someone. They may come across online as witty, or acerbic, naive, horny, intellectual, impulsive, earnest, whatever. You can get reams of written "information" about a person, find out where he/she lives, learn the family history, read their poetry. But it's all a construct, of course. One fills in the gaps (which are large) with all sorts of assumptions; assumptions you don't even realize you are making. Which is not to say that some truth doesn't come across. But it can't ever compare to sitting across from someone and looking them in the eye. And/or hearing the peculiar timbre of their voice. One look at a person's face, gestures, tells you so much, maybe some things you don't want to know.
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UNrealiable narrator, arent we all? we post what we allow people to read and see about us. eventually readers create a personality profile, but then it's a profile predetermined by the author himself. it happened also with my first novel, i kept on meeting people who would say to me in person, i thought you were this, i thought you were that. people are incapable of separating fact from fiction. in the blogworld, how much of facts are really fictionalized, even for a little bit? for fun, for wit's sake, because it's a boring day? oh, life and its many contradictions.
Right: "unreliable narrators." Lately I keep seeing the limitations of the blogging phenomena. There are many good things about it. But (and maybe this happens because I blog so MUCH), every once in awhile I meet someone for lunch or something, and am amazed at what can be "said" without writing, or even talking. The physical body and the presence of the person who inhabits it is so powerful and full of information. I'd been taking that for granted.
Well said, and true. I think though that we also fill in the gaps with assumptions out in the so-called real world. The difference being that we're working from different data sets.
I'm a pretty effective person when it comes to addressing a couple of people in a room. If I'm addressing 50 people or more I've been known to come apart with great anxiety.
So, if you met me in the first context you might find me to be likable. In the second you might decide that I'm an idiot.
I think blogging is great for shy people. It's a way to experiment out loud without too much mess. Of course, often the greatest pleasures in life involve lots of mess.
I'm a pretty effective person when it comes to addressing a couple of people in a room. If I'm addressing 50 people or more I've been known to come apart with great anxiety.
So, if you met me in the first context you might find me to be likable. In the second you might decide that I'm an idiot.
I think blogging is great for shy people. It's a way to experiment out loud without too much mess. Of course, often the greatest pleasures in life involve lots of mess.
Oh I absolutely agree, Tom. Inaccurate assumptions can be made from a glance, too, and from face to face encounters. I guess it's just that blogging has given me a new appreciation for the other, old-fashioned, physical side of communication. Sometimes I miss the physical cues, the raised eyebrow, the smile (or not), the pheromones, etc.
On the other hand, I do sometimes communicate and post things online that I wouldn't immediately do in a physical setting (yeah, especially around more than a couple of people) -- sometimes to my later regret. Usually the latter has to do with the aforementioned "assumptions."
Anyway...I guess that online we are constructing yet another "data set" of social communication (with its own sets of pitfalls), another set of cues and codes to learn, get familiar with.
Jean
On the other hand, I do sometimes communicate and post things online that I wouldn't immediately do in a physical setting (yeah, especially around more than a couple of people) -- sometimes to my later regret. Usually the latter has to do with the aforementioned "assumptions."
Anyway...I guess that online we are constructing yet another "data set" of social communication (with its own sets of pitfalls), another set of cues and codes to learn, get familiar with.
Jean
Jean,
I think that the speed of communication on the internet is what is most dangerous (and sometimes most beautiful) about it.The downside of this speed can be seen most clearly on listservs where virtually every utterance becomes reduced to a reaction, and/or a position to defend. People flame-out because of fill-in-the-blank assumptions that get played out at lightning speed. Nuance gets lost. We've all been there.
Blogs-- and it is kind of counter-intuitive-- seem to be more promotive of community than the listservs. Blogs seem to have more depth, more humanity, more personality, more concern to set up linkages with others, more generosity and vivacity, more occasions for cross-fertilization, more sex appeal, really.
I think of my own blog as an open notebook where anything is permitted. Sometimes it makes me very happy, indeed. Sometimes I despair at the idiocies I commit. But you know... it is part art and part therapy, part vaudeville and part opera, etc. It's a raccoon--or a squirrel, perhaps--foaming at the mouth. Does it have rabies? Or did it just brush its teeth?
Risk runs through it all, runs through everything. And the different worlds begin to interpenetrate.
Blogs have led me to phone calls across the continent and much more.
Steve Tills may be driving from Rochester, NY to my little Kent, Ohio to visit later this month. And all because of blogs.
A pixel-lated hug,
Tom
I think that the speed of communication on the internet is what is most dangerous (and sometimes most beautiful) about it.The downside of this speed can be seen most clearly on listservs where virtually every utterance becomes reduced to a reaction, and/or a position to defend. People flame-out because of fill-in-the-blank assumptions that get played out at lightning speed. Nuance gets lost. We've all been there.
Blogs-- and it is kind of counter-intuitive-- seem to be more promotive of community than the listservs. Blogs seem to have more depth, more humanity, more personality, more concern to set up linkages with others, more generosity and vivacity, more occasions for cross-fertilization, more sex appeal, really.
I think of my own blog as an open notebook where anything is permitted. Sometimes it makes me very happy, indeed. Sometimes I despair at the idiocies I commit. But you know... it is part art and part therapy, part vaudeville and part opera, etc. It's a raccoon--or a squirrel, perhaps--foaming at the mouth. Does it have rabies? Or did it just brush its teeth?
Risk runs through it all, runs through everything. And the different worlds begin to interpenetrate.
Blogs have led me to phone calls across the continent and much more.
Steve Tills may be driving from Rochester, NY to my little Kent, Ohio to visit later this month. And all because of blogs.
A pixel-lated hug,
Tom
I meant earlier to respond to your comments about physical presence--gestures, pheromones, facial expressions, etc.,
and I went totally tangential.
But I agree with you.
A kiss is more important than a poem.
A smile is my favorite punctuation.
Laughter is savored better in person.
and I went totally tangential.
But I agree with you.
A kiss is more important than a poem.
A smile is my favorite punctuation.
Laughter is savored better in person.
hmm I never thought about it in terms of speed. But I go in phases -- sometimes posting impulsively or stupidly, sometimes waiting for days to think through a response before posting, which is what i've been doing regarding something bino posted a week or so ago.
the community of blogging, and its extension into the material world is for real; i've experienced that. I also like yr characterization of it as "part art and part therapy, part vaudeville and part opera, etc."
When I started blogging initially it was to be, and was, a place where i would do whatever, poetically, and experiment all I wanted, and be ugly if I wanted, but i find that as time passes, I'm losing a sense of spontaneity in the process of writing poetry. Maybe I'm going through a "socialization" process. am I learning the codes too well now? I dunno. This is why I've taken Diaryo & The Nightjar off my Okir links (but not altogether offline). Except for As-Is, I'm cooking my poetry in a virtual cave for now.
or maybe i should just chill and enjoy being "on stage" and slipping on a banana peel now and then.
Nevertheless, pixel hugs back to ya...
(you too, Bino!)
the community of blogging, and its extension into the material world is for real; i've experienced that. I also like yr characterization of it as "part art and part therapy, part vaudeville and part opera, etc."
When I started blogging initially it was to be, and was, a place where i would do whatever, poetically, and experiment all I wanted, and be ugly if I wanted, but i find that as time passes, I'm losing a sense of spontaneity in the process of writing poetry. Maybe I'm going through a "socialization" process. am I learning the codes too well now? I dunno. This is why I've taken Diaryo & The Nightjar off my Okir links (but not altogether offline). Except for As-Is, I'm cooking my poetry in a virtual cave for now.
or maybe i should just chill and enjoy being "on stage" and slipping on a banana peel now and then.
Nevertheless, pixel hugs back to ya...
(you too, Bino!)
Everywhere you look you see masks; behind the masks are
other masks. All this effort to reveal and understand is
endless, and, it seems to me, every type is equally valuable and valid. If you meet me in person I may hide, depending on the setting
and circumstance. More than in any other place, blogging lets me notice words leap out from my hands or someone else's- happily sudden and unexpected. That typical lack of suspicion. and a mysterious abundance of time and curiosity. Sure, I always recognize meanings in faces so
largely unarticulated, possibly as a result of layers upon layers of formal politenesses and primeval longings to at last share commonalities which so often necessarily wash over everything in their comforting tenderness...
("it's warm, it's cold, I'm tired, there are so many things to do, bills to pay....and the goddam job!")...
sometimes leaving little room
for those quirky anecdotes so comfortable in the laps of blogs-
where the syncopated rhthms of written words- that sometimes let my preoccupations wriggle free to let thought dance, when I have the extra time to hear such resonant threads of thought spun out from human hands and minds...
also the opportunity to reshape communications slightly...a little more precise...
In people, I like shyness more than anything...faces in repose,
seemingly willing to wait forever for actual response...on blogs,
hiding behind their poetry, sometimes complex facets twinkle, even in
the most seemingly humdrum paragraphs...
Like diaries, blogs reveal the poetry in the mundane- yet in everyday
life- the moments often feel so hurried. Why? Something about
how rarely the art of listenings is achieved, perhaps....We all
have so much hunger to be lheard.
here you can read as much or as little as you want...think
at your own pace...forget, remember, imagine what you want...
still, everyone needs someone to love who is right there...
anyway, thanks for your thread which let me write these things
so late at night.. this tossed out message in a bottle...
other masks. All this effort to reveal and understand is
endless, and, it seems to me, every type is equally valuable and valid. If you meet me in person I may hide, depending on the setting
and circumstance. More than in any other place, blogging lets me notice words leap out from my hands or someone else's- happily sudden and unexpected. That typical lack of suspicion. and a mysterious abundance of time and curiosity. Sure, I always recognize meanings in faces so
largely unarticulated, possibly as a result of layers upon layers of formal politenesses and primeval longings to at last share commonalities which so often necessarily wash over everything in their comforting tenderness...
("it's warm, it's cold, I'm tired, there are so many things to do, bills to pay....and the goddam job!")...
sometimes leaving little room
for those quirky anecdotes so comfortable in the laps of blogs-
where the syncopated rhthms of written words- that sometimes let my preoccupations wriggle free to let thought dance, when I have the extra time to hear such resonant threads of thought spun out from human hands and minds...
also the opportunity to reshape communications slightly...a little more precise...
In people, I like shyness more than anything...faces in repose,
seemingly willing to wait forever for actual response...on blogs,
hiding behind their poetry, sometimes complex facets twinkle, even in
the most seemingly humdrum paragraphs...
Like diaries, blogs reveal the poetry in the mundane- yet in everyday
life- the moments often feel so hurried. Why? Something about
how rarely the art of listenings is achieved, perhaps....We all
have so much hunger to be lheard.
here you can read as much or as little as you want...think
at your own pace...forget, remember, imagine what you want...
still, everyone needs someone to love who is right there...
anyway, thanks for your thread which let me write these things
so late at night.. this tossed out message in a bottle...
Well, Nick -- I guess that, combined with face to face interactions, whether connected to blogging or not, both types of interaction together somehow increase or deepen my experience of being human, and also (in phases anyway) to be more accepting of more of those little -- and sometimes big -- leaps and impulses, slips and tropes, another field of play coming from others, and myself, as you say: "More than in any other place, blogging lets me notice words leap out from my hands or someone else's- happily sudden and unexpected. That typical lack of suspicion. and a mysterious abundance of time and curiosity"
All these things you mention are what I appreciate more than anything @ blogging. Even especially for myself the occasional opportunity to vent anger and frustration is probably more than I'd do in certain social settings.
And there's also something about the process of blogging as a poet which feels so satisfyingly "canon-busting" I must say...that is, to become "fluid" more or less (not fixed to the page), and to take time to discover in blogging and thus in writing the value and beauty of the mundane, even the silly.
The masking...I guess will always go on as long as humans are behind it...also the unmasking.
Glad you took the time in the middle of the night to post on this...
j.
All these things you mention are what I appreciate more than anything @ blogging. Even especially for myself the occasional opportunity to vent anger and frustration is probably more than I'd do in certain social settings.
And there's also something about the process of blogging as a poet which feels so satisfyingly "canon-busting" I must say...that is, to become "fluid" more or less (not fixed to the page), and to take time to discover in blogging and thus in writing the value and beauty of the mundane, even the silly.
The masking...I guess will always go on as long as humans are behind it...also the unmasking.
Glad you took the time in the middle of the night to post on this...
j.
fascinating exchanges. believe it or not, im reading these in my classroom. yup, blogging in the middle of a class. theyre doing a project and my caffeinated brain needs to focus on other things, so im reading your blogs.
how much do we really know about a person by "reading" them physically? not much, i think. because as nick said, there are always layers and layers of masks. isnt life all about wearing masks, and putting out the best and the worst masks we have? they say 60% of communication is non-verbal. in many cultures, non-verbal cues are much higher than that.
the blogs of course have their own personality. i have been blog-hunting for sometime, and trying to find blogistas who are engaging, neurotic, abysmal, intelligent, anything for a good read. nothing worse than a blog that has nothing to offer in the thinking department, huh? but hey, boring is a personality too.
have to teach now...
how much do we really know about a person by "reading" them physically? not much, i think. because as nick said, there are always layers and layers of masks. isnt life all about wearing masks, and putting out the best and the worst masks we have? they say 60% of communication is non-verbal. in many cultures, non-verbal cues are much higher than that.
the blogs of course have their own personality. i have been blog-hunting for sometime, and trying to find blogistas who are engaging, neurotic, abysmal, intelligent, anything for a good read. nothing worse than a blog that has nothing to offer in the thinking department, huh? but hey, boring is a personality too.
have to teach now...
Oh, I wish I could just move all of this to the IT Kitchen (http://itkitchen.info/) where I just did a post on "Why I Blog" -- Jean, maybe you would consider posting this there, too?
I have seen many small disputes erupt into relationship destroying events through email, and now blogs. The lack of those subtle cues that face to face, or even voice to voice, communication allow forces/allows folks to use their imaginations to fill in the missing cues. Often to disasterous results.
These mediums also seem to compress time in some instances. Relationships develop more quickly in some instances, passion intensifies and personas, masks if you will, are accepted as real. You called this one right.
And to put it into a slightly different context, it is these very subtle cues that cause autistics so much trouble in the neurotypical world. Most of the adult atusitics I know are far more comfortable with email, where everyone is equally autsitic.
These mediums also seem to compress time in some instances. Relationships develop more quickly in some instances, passion intensifies and personas, masks if you will, are accepted as real. You called this one right.
And to put it into a slightly different context, it is these very subtle cues that cause autistics so much trouble in the neurotypical world. Most of the adult atusitics I know are far more comfortable with email, where everyone is equally autsitic.
I do agree w/Nick & Tom, though, that there are masks upon masks to deal with in both the online and physical worlds. Maybe it's true that the speed of internet communication, and the precision of it (no gestures or facial cues to "soften" hard statements except for the occasional emoticon - which is not a good substitute) can bring relationships down more quickly than one would want.
And I wonder to what extent one could defamiliarize oneself to the physical cues, if blogging takes up a large part of one's life.
I suspect that the fact that I have dyscalculia may have something to do with my blogging...habit. Sometimes it's hard for me to follow/hear highly abstract thought in face to face discussion. Writing everything down like this makes things easier to follow, allows me to keep track of my thoughts better, and to be more precise in communicating.
And I wonder to what extent one could defamiliarize oneself to the physical cues, if blogging takes up a large part of one's life.
I suspect that the fact that I have dyscalculia may have something to do with my blogging...habit. Sometimes it's hard for me to follow/hear highly abstract thought in face to face discussion. Writing everything down like this makes things easier to follow, allows me to keep track of my thoughts better, and to be more precise in communicating.
isnt etymology wonderful? never heard of dyscalculia but i tried to dissect it and voila..i think i got it.
i dont think anything can ever replace physical interaction. the cyberworld is truly at the disposal of our fingers, our toggle switch. the on/off. the binary characteristics 0-1.
human interaction is time-marked. you deliver your smile and you cant go back and redo it. you can only learn from it.
but the cyberworld is beyond the limiting concept of space and time. and i think thats why i appreciate it. its a new dimension of communication. we try to make it more personal and in so many ways, we have.
obviously the result of our primal desire to connect . . .
spaghetti and meatballs anyone?
i dont think anything can ever replace physical interaction. the cyberworld is truly at the disposal of our fingers, our toggle switch. the on/off. the binary characteristics 0-1.
human interaction is time-marked. you deliver your smile and you cant go back and redo it. you can only learn from it.
but the cyberworld is beyond the limiting concept of space and time. and i think thats why i appreciate it. its a new dimension of communication. we try to make it more personal and in so many ways, we have.
obviously the result of our primal desire to connect . . .
spaghetti and meatballs anyone?
If I wanted someone to know me electronically, I'd email. I'm in no position (geographically) to go and visit anyone, and I'm too shy to do so even if I could. If I lived next to you, I'd probably take ages to meet you.
For me, blogging is self-publishing, not chatting. I blog to write, to make myself keep putting things in a form that is finished enough to risk showing to other people. Even when I get no feedback, I've written in hope and dread of feedback, or hope and dread of no feedback, which is also feedback. And feedbag.
For me, blogging is self-publishing, not chatting. I blog to write, to make myself keep putting things in a form that is finished enough to risk showing to other people. Even when I get no feedback, I've written in hope and dread of feedback, or hope and dread of no feedback, which is also feedback. And feedbag.
I feel the same way- I view my writing
on my blog as published. The thing
is, I published plenty before blogging
and the sense of anybody being out
there reading my writng it was nil. Once
in awhile someone would say something
that made me feel I had lots of readers, but
then this feeling would gradually disappear. I did give
lots of readings, but I could never
quite be sure my work was being
read. Now my writing is responded
to very frequently, and I am aware of it quickly,
by means of html linking, or just
checking around on blogs,
just as I am responding to your
comment above. To me, that
doesn't make this any less "writing."
If the readers of the future are interested
in your thinking or mine, they wiil
track down this conversation, just as
they researched writing in books
and magazine.
Blogging changes what
writing is- because the relationship
between reader and writer is changing-
this was afready going on, but the
change is now much more overt and trackable. When
I read a novel, internally I am "chatting"
with the novelist, and the novelist, if
they are good, is setting the conditions
for this "chat." The need to separate
all these aspects of human communication
comes from a wish to create hierarchies. This
has only alienated people who like to
think a lot from one another. In music, for
example, those who play Brahms have
a feeling of a relaitonship with the composer,
with the conductor, with the other musicians,
and with the listeners. The absence of these
conscious relationships creates artificial
boundaries between readers and writers,
readers and readers, writers and writers.
Nice talking with you.
on my blog as published. The thing
is, I published plenty before blogging
and the sense of anybody being out
there reading my writng it was nil. Once
in awhile someone would say something
that made me feel I had lots of readers, but
then this feeling would gradually disappear. I did give
lots of readings, but I could never
quite be sure my work was being
read. Now my writing is responded
to very frequently, and I am aware of it quickly,
by means of html linking, or just
checking around on blogs,
just as I am responding to your
comment above. To me, that
doesn't make this any less "writing."
If the readers of the future are interested
in your thinking or mine, they wiil
track down this conversation, just as
they researched writing in books
and magazine.
Blogging changes what
writing is- because the relationship
between reader and writer is changing-
this was afready going on, but the
change is now much more overt and trackable. When
I read a novel, internally I am "chatting"
with the novelist, and the novelist, if
they are good, is setting the conditions
for this "chat." The need to separate
all these aspects of human communication
comes from a wish to create hierarchies. This
has only alienated people who like to
think a lot from one another. In music, for
example, those who play Brahms have
a feeling of a relaitonship with the composer,
with the conductor, with the other musicians,
and with the listeners. The absence of these
conscious relationships creates artificial
boundaries between readers and writers,
readers and readers, writers and writers.
Nice talking with you.
Hi,
I have posted something in relation to this thread here:
http://neverneutral.blogspot.com/2004_11_01_neverneutral_archive.html#110055082574084985
warm regards,
e
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I have posted something in relation to this thread here:
http://neverneutral.blogspot.com/2004_11_01_neverneutral_archive.html#110055082574084985
warm regards,
e
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